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« Brian McLaren, Here on Monday. | Main | The Last Word and The *Prayer* After That »

May 09, 2005


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Not to mention that you're making false assumptions about what's being referred to in the title Steve. "The Last Word..." isn't referring to the Bible per se, and therefore "...the Word After That" is not in any way a claim to be adding to scripture. I could be wrong about this - and perhaps Brian could clarify if he's still checking this blog - but my understanding is that "The Last Word" is referring to our eschatological theories, i.e. our complex theological systems regarding heaven, hell, the afterlife, etc. And "the Word After That" is grace, i.e. that after we are done trying to sort out what we believe about the nature of heaven and hell and who exactly goes there, we still need to come back to the unconditional, overwhelming, redeeming grace of God.



Huh? Your comment
"A stance that seems the opposite of you telling us someone is worthy of eternal condemnation".....

I did not "tell" you that. That is my whole point. God said it through Paul(Gal 1:8). If you ignore scripture like that and add other things, you WILL be worthy of eternal God says..not me.
That is the problem when the bible become relative, and you can look for a "word after that". You become your own God, and start making stuff up. Look at the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. They have added a bunch of new scripture,and ignored or rejected others, due to a new supposed revelation from Jesus. Look where that has gotten them. They have abandoned the true Christ revealed in scripture,and the salvation only He brings, and are destined for an eternity in hell.

In the Garden of Eden, when Eve took the apple...she added to scripture. She said that she wasn't supposed to even touch the fruit. God said only that she was not to EAT the fruit. That progressed to her eating it and you know the rest of the story. Stick to scripture like God says to. The gospel is very easy to understand. All this adding, subtracting and big words are just a way of changing it. Trying to make it fit in todays culture of not offending anyone. But hell is offensive, and trying to make it not exist or not be so bad after all is tragic. Some may feel better about themselves just enough to reject the cure we have for an eternity in hell.

"Tammy, thanks for the new POV, but I don't think so."

why not?

"In the Garden of Eden, when Eve took the apple...she added to scripture."

I didn't realize that 'scripture' existed that far back. ;)

Concerning Mark 9:45-47
Jesus here is using the language of analogy -- talking about 'Gehenna' - the burning trash-dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Modern English translations are making an 'interpretive decision' in substituting the word 'hell' here, rather than retaining the original, 'gehenna'.

So... if Jesus were living in Russia today, he might have said,"if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the depths of Chernobyl."

Another thought: Vietnam veterans (and others) often use an English 'idom' in decribing their tour-of-duty as a "living hell." When we live our lives outside of the values which define God's kingdom, we shouldn't be surprised when our lives become like a living hell (i.e. like Gehenna). What was the point Jesus was wanting to make? That the consequences of sin are (in this life) far more severe than we realize, and therefore are to be avoided, even at great personal cost.

Yes, we live in a fallen world. Just the reality of sin and what it has done to the world in general, and to us in particular, is obvious. For those wondering if there is a real hell, just look at the recent tsnuami. Evil is real. Hell exists. The bad things that happen today forshadow the reality of hell for those rejecting God and His forgiveness.

The consequences of sin are bad in this life. But they are much worse if they are not covered by the blood of Jesus when you die. Your sins will send you to hell unless you receive the salvation that was paid for by Jesus on the cross.

The gospel means good news, because there is such a thing as bad news. Hell is real. It is our eternal destination without the salvation promised in the gospels. The message is simple, true and complete. God's plan is perfect, as is His Word.

i like the idea of challenging thoughts with good intelligent discussion. I guess with that, shouldnt we have to have read this book to be able to discuss it?

Go do some research other then just read other peoples opinion on it. What you fail to understand is that todays translations, that you so readily quote, are in fact a 'translation', which includes the translators point of view and understanding. Language does not exist without understanding of the culture. Many of the original hebrew and greek are tough to translate, with the translaters trying to put themselves back into the place, thought and feel of the original writers. There is no easy 'word-for-word' translation of the bible. It is important that we, in every generation, rethink and retranslate the bible. And ask, 'what is really meant by the word...?' This is not an 'adding to' but an understanding of.

If other educated, spirit-guided people had not done that, then your bible would still today say in places like Luke 13:3 " I tell you, no! But unless you do pennance (same root word as repent), you too will all perish." I dont think you believe that we must pay alms to the church to be saved, or buy our way out of hell do you. But that is what was being preached 'from the bible' around the time of Martin Luther. Only when he researched it, did he realize that it didnt mean 'the money you pay to the church'. We are only doing the same thing again, asking 'what does repent really mean, or what was meant when they said it?' and also 'what does perish mean/meant?' If you understand the times and what was happening then, and Jesus' understanding and foresight, you can easily translate this too mean 'If you dont give up your way of doing 'the kingdom' and start following me in my way, you will all die, be crushed by rome.', which is exactly what happened to Jerusalem around 70AD.

I personally believe there is a hell, I just dont know exactly what that is? I am most opposed to the idea that Jesus dying was only about getting us to heaven and out of hell. If that was the case, why doesnt God take us home to heaven the minute we get converted. I have joined his kingdom, his outpost, here on earth, and now I have work to do as a part, an ambassador to that kingdom.

Willard makes the point that most christians here in america believe that christianity is some sort of invisible barcode, that gets them into heaven and out of hell and is completely invisible and irrelevant to real life right now (ie, I can do whatever I want, cuz Im going to heaven). He also says, 'I am always surprised to hear from someone that they trust in God with their eternal wellbeing, but cant seem to trust him with/for today' (or something to that measure). Most of the people you quote or read reviews from, that disagree with McLaren, do not disagree with Willard. Its very hard to disagree with Willard, McLaren is just easier to pick on, although they both mostly say similar things.

Anyways, hope that wasnt too much flaming, I hope to care to read a little of Willard, McLaren or NT Wright to understand some of these things. We arent trying to start a new cult, or even divide the church, just to be faithful to the truth, Jesus, and the truth he has revealed in the whole bible. Our goal is not to make the bible more pallatable to the world, but to make ourselves more faithful to Jesus. Im sure yours is the same.


Hey Geo...Your right, I really should read the book. Maybe I am missing something by not reading it, but I have studied this "emerging church" stuff, and I imagine the book reflects this philosophy. I understand McClaren just believes in loving people into the kingdom. Sounds good, but you must tell the people the truth to really love them. The truth is what is sorely missing today, instead of the absence of love. Absolute truth is dismissed nowadays in the culture of political correctness, and relative feelings are what is of utmost importance.

Jesus was never afraid to speak the truth in love. We must not buckle under today's sensitivites of being afraid to hurt someone's feelings. Sure, we need to be lead by the Spirit, and lovingly tell people the truth. If I went to a doctor, and he didn't tell me the truth about the potential terminal disease that I had, then that would not be very loving. Especially, if he had the cure.

The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. People are dying every day without saving faith in Jesus. They are going to an eternity in hell(even though some "believers" are not sure about that). And we need to have hearts broken for them. They are lost, and just "loving" them is not going to get them into heaven. The bible says that "how are they going to believe in Him whom they have not heard"? We must tell these folks the truth. All this nit picking and musing on whether hell really exists or is not that bad, is just what satan wants. Hells best kept secret is that it doesn't exist. The gospel is good news, because there is bad news. If you don't tell people the bad news, then you are not loving them. Jesus never had a problem with it. Neither should we.

Ok, maybe I am off the subject of the book. I guess the book that I am most jealous of is God's Word. True, complete and without error.

I have been reading the scripture, which I believe is God's Written Word to us for 26 years.

I know what is within the pages. You say:

"Huh? Your comment
"A stance that seems the opposite of you telling us someone is worthy of eternal condemnation".....

I did not "tell" you that. That is my whole point. God said it through Paul(Gal 1:8). If you ignore scripture like that and add other things, you WILL be worthy of eternal God says..not me. "

God did not show up on Chris Monroe's website and post that scripture. You showed up and started throwing around who's worthy of Eternal Condemnation.

I'd be more careful of being the Gate Keeper to Eternal Life. Did you actually read my entire post? Or just the part that you quoted so you'd have something to fight about?


I'm extending Grace to you because ala Matthew 7 I'd like Grace extended to me. God's word also says (not just eternal condemnation, unless that's like your fav thing) that if we see a brother in sin, we should humbly in love strive to restore the brother... not sit on the sidelines cheering, cause you know, damit Eve screwed up, you're not listening and Hell is where you belong.



Tammy, why I don't believe the pov that Job wasn't thinking of a future Resurrection? See my 2nd post to Mr. McLaren.



Hell is "the place of the dead." So how can there actually be a "living hell?" Paradise=the place of the dead righteous (in hell).
Lake of Fire= the destination of the unrighteous/the devil and all his angels.
We will all be in hell until the ressurrection. The righteous will be ressurrected to pass into their heavenly reward (the presence of God). The unrighteous will go to their reward in the lake of fire. Hell itself is not the same as the lake of fire.


Does anyone doubt 911 as the JUDGMENT of GOD upon AMERICA, and the NATIONS of the WORLD? Read on now; writes Ivor Manuel, Branch of the Lord.

Yesterday 10/22/06 Associated Press published the following story: NEW YORK – Searchers found more bones believed to belong to Sept. 11 World Trade Center attack victims Sunday in manholes and utility areas, areas that apparently were overlooked years ago…

Utility and city officials have excavated more than five hundred areas, yielding more than 100 pieces of human remains, since construction workers discovered bones earlier in the week in a manhole excavated as part of work in a transit hub…

The medical examiner’s office said 18 pieces of remains were found Sunday. The bones found thus far range from tiny fragments to recognizable bones from the sculls, torso, feet and hands. Some are as large as whole arms and legs bones…

Now read the WORD of the LORD by Prophet ISAIAH chapter 34: 1, 2, 3, 4. For the LORD shall accomplish His purpose according to the WORD by His prophets; writes Ivor Manuel.

“Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken ye people; let the Earth hear, and all that is therein; the World and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their ARMIES; He hath utterly destroyed them; He has delivered them to the slaughter. THIR SLAIN also SHALL BE CAST OUT, and THEIR STINK SHALL COME UP OUT of their CARCASES, and the MOUNTAINS SHALL BE MELTED (mountains in Afghanistan) with their BLOOD. And all the Host of Heaven shall be dissolved, and the Heavens shall be rolled together as (Tsunami, Earthquakes and Hurricanes) a scroll; and all their entire host (idols of America and the World) shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

Now, read the WORD of the LORD given to Ivor Manuel prophet, and published before the Presidential elections of 2004, in his Web Page named

End of page 4 and part of page 5 of 22 pages:

Then from there; JESUS the son of man; The MESSIAH SON of GOD; The HIGHEST PRIEST and PROPHET of the prophets; ALEUZENEV; HIS NEW NAME (Revelation 3:12); Our HEAVENLY BROTHER whom is set down with OUR FATHER in HIS THRONE; spoke saying to HIS brother: “Write all that I AM saying in your ears; that MY sheep may read and understand MY FATHER’S WORD, and also hear MY VOICE in their ears; to understand “The COVENANT of PEACE and ETERNAL LIFE.” And HIS prophet opened the LORD’S BOOK of REVELATION given to HIS servant; Saint JOHN THE DIVINE 2:23 and read HIS Written WORDS: “And I will kill her children with death [JEZEBEL’S children, those who idolized their own FREDOM, Statue of Liberty, Goddess of Liberties; worshipers of Baal god of material images from the church of THYATIRA]; and all the churches shall know that I AM He whom searches the rains and the hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your Works.”

Thereon, the prophet recalled December of 1998; after President Clinton had been impeached by the House of Representatives, and before the Senate of the United States would vote on February 12, 1999, Year of Our LORD, to either remove or leave the President in office. The following testimony of JESUS was dictated to HIS brother Ivor Manuel (prodigal son); by HIM; The SPIRIT of PROPHESY. The testimony was published in a tourist magazine named ORIENTATION; and was read by people all over the World visiting Orlando; and few shall know, they were blessed with this knowledge during their visit to Florida. It was titled, “KING and COURT vs. the people;” and it is written: “Raising the consciousness of the planet is the job of the King (Establish Morality and Peace by the WORD of GOD), but the King is a liar (then, President Bill Clinton) and teaches immorality and adultery to the people. The King has broken The Law of the land and that of Heaven. He has lied to his people and murdered his brothers [lies about adultery and bombing of Baghdad during Ramadan] as they prayed. The House has judge the King and found him guilty (Impeachment by the House), but the King and his court (The President and Senators that voted against his Impeachment) believe he is above The Law. The King is arrogant, his court is in darkness and they blind the people with the veil of money and idolatry to the host of impurity. The speaker of the House has shown the way and has asked the King to follow in the way of constriction (resign as President), but the King and his court will not yield to the wisdom of repentance. Therefore the people (common people must raise a voice against the President and the Congress) must raise the consciousness of the King and his court. The people who say: “In GOD we TRUST,” must follow The Consciousness of Light (CHRIST’S CONSCIOUSNESS) and punish the King. If the people fail to fire (Impeached the President) the King, they will bring GREAT CONDEMNATION UPON the LAND of AMERICA.”

It was signed, prophet for the new millennium. Then he (Ivor Manuel prophet) recalled that February 12 of 1999 Year of Our LORD came; which is also his birthday as well. On that day, the Senate voted to leave the President in office. Then on April 20th 1999, the day of the prophet’s 25th wedding anniversary, while US. Jet-fighters where bombing Kosovo; The LORD began to pass through the land of America; Littleton, Chicago, Atlanta, etc; and smite the children of the Christian nation, according to “The WORKS” the leaders of America have Glorified; “THE TEACHINGS of WAR [Kosovo then, now Afghanistan and Iraq] and VIOLENCE”, just as The LORD had prophesized it would happened in HIS BOOK of REVELATION chapter 2: 23; and had told HIS prophet to warn the nation before February 12 of 1999, which he did accordingly. “I pray for you to understand in The LIGHT”, says Ivor Manuel.

Today, October 23, 2006, the WORD of the LORD remains with HIS JUDGMENT and CONDEMNATION upon the LAND of AMERICA; unless the people REPENT and IMPEACHED President George W. Bush; thus says The LORD, and writes His prophet Ivor Manuel.

“And He said unto me, THOU MUST PROPHESY again BEFORE MANY PEOPLES and NATIONS, and TONGUES, and KINGS.” Revelation 10:11
And I praise Him: ALELUYA! AMEN! ALEUZENEV! Vengan mis hermanos Judios (Los Aztecas and all Immigrants) para ALEUZENEV!

Ivor, um, well wow.

Some of us don't believe it was judgement against america.

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Luke 13, from New International Version translation)

Do I think that the folk in the Towers were more guilty than anywhere else in the world? no. But unless you too repent you will also perish.



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