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March 05, 2006


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"The important thing however is that we do not need to insist on this explanation - Real Presence is sufficient and consensually recieved."

Fr. Matt -- just curious. Theologically, can Real Presence be understood as a tangible expression of Christ's Immanence?

Chris, thanks for the timely post. My mom, raised Catholic in Louisana, wants nothing remotely to do with anything that resembles it now that she is born again. She totally doesn't understand how her son, raised protestant, now resonates more with catholic liturgy than protestant spontaneous experience.

I think it's also unfair to lump Orthodoxy with Roman Catholicism. They come from a similar heritage up to a point, but the way they articulate their belief is quite different.

Also, Fr. Matt is correct, Orthodox would view the 'lex orandi, lex est credendi' as a call of conservatism in favor of traditional and evaluated corporate prayer.

I'm not sure the bickering between "Transubstantiation" and "Real Presence", and so forth and so on is very helpful outside of Reformation duke outs. Again, Orthodox have a third view which I find much more constructive, namely that the Eucharist is understand in rather Polyvalent ways, anamnesis still being fitting enough. The language of Transubstantiaion might be misleading, but we should ask what the RC Church is understanding this to mean.

It's a modernist argument as best I can tell, one I do not relate to so much.

i'm also not sure how proper it is to separate 'salvation' as a heaven vs hell destiny from the earthly aspect of it. There's too much emphasis on salvation as a word referring only to the eternal, based on the intellectual. Wright does an excellent job of harmonizing soteriology in a way reminiscent of Nicene and AnteNicene writers.

Maryellen and I have been worshiping with Episcopalians of late. For Maryellen a homecoming of sorts ex-Catholic (not sure that is what she would say but…) for me a kind of new thing. Oh, yes I have studied liturgy as a part of Church history but the emersion in the history as worship is a different thing all together. As some of you might know I come from a non - Christian background (Satanic new age Eastern Religious practices) of a more “mysterious” transcendent approach to interacting with God. This often is not found and is frowned upon among Protestants even though we are told to meditate in the Scriptures.

A couple of weeks ago while meditating before going to the “blood and body” “eucurest” (spelling) …. I realized something. The liturgy is being taught by the Priest much like a teaching Seder. Many times in my life with Christ a teacher pastor … will ask the question what do you have in your hands … that is all you need to serve. From that past question I realized - heard Yahweh say the transcendence of My existence is missed or overlooked among the “low” church worship. You have nothing in your hand (no Bible ect) just the invisibleness of who I Am. The mystery the otherness of Yahweh hit me like it has not for some years - the detachment from this world and the touch the face of Yahweh is missing in all this Evangelical - Charismatic worship in its noise and excitement appealing to the “flesh” which let’s face it is this world centered - “what does worship do for me” thing. I entered into Christ seeking the eternal - transcendent things and I realized that I had moved away from that into what I can only call some type of “this world” religion this might be what Paul is pointing to in his flesh verses spirit concepts. Now do not point at this as some type of Gnostic ethereal mumbo jumbo or something. The mystery seems to be striped from Christianity with the onset of the Reformation in the West. Other expressions of Christianity worldwide have retained this. It would seem that the draw of Protestant believers into these traditions is a fulfilling of the depths seeking for that contact with Yahweh (deep calling to deep). And knowing the transcendent experience of non - Christian faith systems the as well as move into “pagan worship” (no intent to put you down wonderer) is a cry from the heart of this need being rejected . It would seem that the “emergent” expressions are attempts to touch Yahweh’s transcendence which frightens age old Reform groups because the picture looks like Rome to them or non - Christian in some way.

I think we have to explore and consider our need for the mystery and transcendence to teach us we are created not co - creators or something. After all the time spent with Yahweh by Moses he still asked let me see your face. The current atmosphere being talked about here I think to be this same question…. Let me see Your face!
Pastor Art

Of course it's catholic - that is why we do it! We are Methodists!

Yez its Catholic!the universal church of Christ. not Roman Catholic. Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed the Lords Prayer and Gloria Patri even liturgical vestments is part of our worship in the catholic faith. Christian history is full of this practices. For the peurpose of edification of our faith. I am a Presbyterian Minister. and I am a catholic.

Christ established His Church. Not churches...I wonder what He would say if He returned today and witnessed over 2,800 Christian denominations? May I suggest Most everything coming out of Franciscan University, Steubinville is current thought on Catholic Teaching. Great sight for Apologetics. Enjoy your site and contributers.

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